Comments on: What does an education guarantee? http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/ Notes from the classroom and observations about today's practice of journalism online Fri, 05 Dec 2008 02:50:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Mindy http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3601 Mindy Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:03:32 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3601 Stephanie, that's a great comment. Thank you. I agree with just about everything you said. While it is certainly true that journalism students (a) should take more high-level courses outside journalism, and (b) get more practical experience in the newsroom, there are many factors affecting how the reality plays out. Some professors spend their whole course teaching you stuff you should have learned in high school. Some do not. Some courses tend to be fairly remedial because -- in spite of that -- few students can manage to get an A. As for the outside courses -- the requirements are designed to force our students to take a fair number of outside courses. Some students choose to take Chaucer, or an upper-level course in religion, anthropology, or computer science. Other students choose "Man and His Food," which I hear is an easy A. An education is like a lot of things in life -- you get out of it what you put into it. Stephanie, that’s a great comment. Thank you. I agree with just about everything you said.

While it is certainly true that journalism students (a) should take more high-level courses outside journalism, and (b) get more practical experience in the newsroom, there are many factors affecting how the reality plays out.

Some professors spend their whole course teaching you stuff you should have learned in high school. Some do not. Some courses tend to be fairly remedial because — in spite of that — few students can manage to get an A.

As for the outside courses — the requirements are designed to force our students to take a fair number of outside courses. Some students choose to take Chaucer, or an upper-level course in religion, anthropology, or computer science. Other students choose “Man and His Food,” which I hear is an easy A.

An education is like a lot of things in life — you get out of it what you put into it.

]]> By: Stephanie Garry http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3598 Stephanie Garry Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:59:21 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3598 Mindy, I read Pinsker's comment and had the opposite of your reaction. I feel it's absolutely true. Something I've struggled with as a journalism major is that I don't much believe in journalism school. We spend most of our time learning skills in a fictitious setting rather than under the real pressure of a newsroom. I find most of my peers feel no need to get the real experience that would make their journalism education more meaningful. It seems to put them so far behind that oftentimes I feel like I'm stuck in a remedial class. The other day I had an epiphany about this. I'm taking Chaucer with R.A. Shoaf, an impressive and serious Chaucerian who's been teaching the course for 20-plus years. We're doing a take-home essay this weekend. He put three grammar points on the board. If you commit the first mistake (using the wrong "its") you lose an entire letter grade. The next mistake would cost you half a letter grade, the last one (a comma splice) a fourth -- for each instance. THIS is how you teach grammar. It is basic, basic stuff. Stuff we learned in elementary school. Stuff any journalism major should already know from having written, and written, and written. Stuff that shouldn't require an entire 50 minutes to explain. In this class, the substance is Chaucer. In journalism classes, the substance should be real work. A journalism department should be like a newsroom, with students reporting and other students editing for publication, where a mistake is out there for the world to see. That is the real penalty of ignorance or carelessness, and it's the only way to teach journalism students the importance of the comma or the well-checked fact. Moreover, I think journalism departments should put more emphasis on students' taking outside courses and receiving that classical liberal arts education that Pinsker advocates. I'm taking Rhetorical Criticism in the English department, and we're reading a lot of famous speeches politicians have delivered (like Checkers and Chappaquiddick). I think it's going to be a key class for my development as a journalist because I'm learning to see through the rhetoric used to manipulate Americans, including journalists. If anyone can benefit from learning to scrutinize information and stories, it's us. But we're stuck in Editing, watching fishes eat each other to learn passive voice, while history and English majors fine-tune their minds and their sense of context. Mindy, I read Pinsker’s comment and had the opposite of your reaction. I feel it’s absolutely true.

Something I’ve struggled with as a journalism major is that I don’t much believe in journalism school. We spend most of our time learning skills in a fictitious setting rather than under the real pressure of a newsroom. I find most of my peers feel no need to get the real experience that would make their journalism education more meaningful. It seems to put them so far behind that oftentimes I feel like I’m stuck in a remedial class.

The other day I had an epiphany about this. I’m taking Chaucer with R.A. Shoaf, an impressive and serious Chaucerian who’s been teaching the course for 20-plus years. We’re doing a take-home essay this weekend. He put three grammar points on the board. If you commit the first mistake (using the wrong “its”) you lose an entire letter grade. The next mistake would cost you half a letter grade, the last one (a comma splice) a fourth — for each instance. THIS is how you teach grammar. It is basic, basic stuff. Stuff we learned in elementary school. Stuff any journalism major should already know from having written, and written, and written. Stuff that shouldn’t require an entire 50 minutes to explain.

In this class, the substance is Chaucer. In journalism classes, the substance should be real work. A journalism department should be like a newsroom, with students reporting and other students editing for publication, where a mistake is out there for the world to see. That is the real penalty of ignorance or carelessness, and it’s the only way to teach journalism students the importance of the comma or the well-checked fact.

Moreover, I think journalism departments should put more emphasis on students’ taking outside courses and receiving that classical liberal arts education that Pinsker advocates. I’m taking Rhetorical Criticism in the English department, and we’re reading a lot of famous speeches politicians have delivered (like Checkers and Chappaquiddick). I think it’s going to be a key class for my development as a journalist because I’m learning to see through the rhetoric used to manipulate Americans, including journalists. If anyone can benefit from learning to scrutinize information and stories, it’s us. But we’re stuck in Editing, watching fishes eat each other to learn passive voice, while history and English majors fine-tune their minds and their sense of context.

]]> By: John Cokley http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3247 John Cokley Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:20:57 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3247 Yes, this is a valid story the world over. Maybe there's a research funding proposal waiting to be written ... Q: how to quantify student effort as a component of university assignments? This has great professional significance of course: many reporters and editors (producers, photographers, copy subs, layout and design) spend countless hours banging away industriously at work which others (normally higher ups) later decide (for whatever reason, but hardly ever using a graded criteria sheet as we academics do) will not be published. "Story does not come together"/ "layout does not 'work' for me" / "too little time left in the bulletin for this ... hold it over (forever)". The number of times I've felt like screaming "But I've worked so HARD on this!" ... We all accept this is a professional reality but perhaps this aspect is underdeveloped in our journalism grading/formation criteria: how to prepare a journalist (or anyone for that matter) for their *effort* (specifically) to be undervalued? Because sometimes -- we should acknowledge this upfront -- our professional efforts (and the students' efforts) ARE actually plenty good enough for the task to be published (or for the student to receive an A-grade) but other circumstances intrude. That's a fact of life too. I suspect we would get a useful answer from an education assessment professional -- Mindy, know anyone qualified and willing to advise on this? Yes, this is a valid story the world over. Maybe there’s a research funding proposal waiting to be written … Q: how to quantify student effort as a component of university assignments?

This has great professional significance of course: many reporters and editors (producers, photographers, copy subs, layout and design) spend countless hours banging away industriously at work which others (normally higher ups) later decide (for whatever reason, but hardly ever using a graded criteria sheet as we academics do) will not be published. “Story does not come together”/ “layout does not ‘work’ for me” / “too little time left in the bulletin for this … hold it over (forever)”. The number of times I’ve felt like screaming “But I’ve worked so HARD on this!” …

We all accept this is a professional reality but perhaps this aspect is underdeveloped in our journalism grading/formation criteria: how to prepare a journalist (or anyone for that matter) for their *effort* (specifically) to be undervalued? Because sometimes — we should acknowledge this upfront — our professional efforts (and the students’ efforts) ARE actually plenty good enough for the task to be published (or for the student to receive an A-grade) but other circumstances intrude. That’s a fact of life too.

I suspect we would get a useful answer from an education assessment professional — Mindy, know anyone qualified and willing to advise on this?

]]> By: Mindy http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3232 Mindy Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:04:49 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3232 I agree, and I think most educators give fair value for a grade. I know I do. As long as there's no indication of cheating, the work itself earns points regardless of what I think the student put into it. One of my favorite grade complaint stories is about a student who had never used Photoshop before and was rather phobic about using software. The assignment was to create a simple logo and turn in a GIF file. Hers earned a grade of C. It was quite mediocre. Her protest: "But I worked so hard on it! I worked for HOURS!" I appreciate that. Really, I do. But the end product didn't look good. We'd gone over principles of color and typography, and how to use the Type tool and layers, but in the end, what she turned in was worth a C. It doesn't matter how long she worked on it. I agree, and I think most educators give fair value for a grade. I know I do. As long as there’s no indication of cheating, the work itself earns points regardless of what I think the student put into it.

One of my favorite grade complaint stories is about a student who had never used Photoshop before and was rather phobic about using software. The assignment was to create a simple logo and turn in a GIF file. Hers earned a grade of C. It was quite mediocre.

Her protest: “But I worked so hard on it! I worked for HOURS!”

I appreciate that. Really, I do. But the end product didn’t look good. We’d gone over principles of color and typography, and how to use the Type tool and layers, but in the end, what she turned in was worth a C. It doesn’t matter how long she worked on it.

]]> By: John Cokley http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3231 John Cokley Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:36:37 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3231 And another thing ... I think I understand very well the irate student who values a verifiable grade over a professor's protestations of "perceived learning but low grade" ... a student who is doing well ought to receive a grade that reflects the achievement and the academic should not muck about with the truth by saying "you did OK, i just didn't give you a good mark". The grade SHOULD reflect the work. If the student successfully jumps through the "A" hoop, he or she should receive an "A". If not, then the academic owes the student the truth. And another thing … I think I understand very well the irate student who values a verifiable grade over a professor’s protestations of “perceived learning but low grade” … a student who is doing well ought to receive a grade that reflects the achievement and the academic should not muck about with the truth by saying “you did OK, i just didn’t give you a good mark”. The grade SHOULD reflect the work. If the student successfully jumps through the “A” hoop, he or she should receive an “A”. If not, then the academic owes the student the truth.

]]> By: Neil Ralston http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3224 Neil Ralston Tue, 04 Sep 2007 03:16:57 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3224 Many of Pinsker's comments seem to me to hold true, but how is the value of a college education changing, especially now that more and more universities offer online degrees? Many of Pinsker’s comments seem to me to hold true, but how is the value of a college education changing, especially now that more and more universities offer online degrees?

]]> By: John Cokley http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3215 John Cokley Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:42:14 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3215 I tell my journalism students that a good university education [which they assist in creating by actively learning] gives them a competitive edge in the workplace and labour market. It also sets them up to be the leaders of the future, instead of being the followers. This applies equally well in journalism as in law, medicine and engineering ... it's just that law, medicine and engineering mandate participation at uni by law, whereas journalism mandates its graduates' participation by market force. I tell my journalism students that a good university education [which they assist in creating by actively learning] gives them a competitive edge in the workplace and labour market. It also sets them up to be the leaders of the future, instead of being the followers.

This applies equally well in journalism as in law, medicine and engineering … it’s just that law, medicine and engineering mandate participation at uni by law, whereas journalism mandates its graduates’ participation by market force.

]]> By: David Poulson http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3162 David Poulson Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:51:14 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3162 I try to set a tone in my classroom that students should worry about the learning and forget about the grade. I tell them that a less than optimal grade is simply a signal that they don't completely grasp the concept - yet. It doesn't mean they are stupid. It means they haven't mastered the material and that they need to find a way to do that. We can do that together. But for many, a B or less means failure. And in the real world, they are sometimes right. I've had students tell me that they understand the good learning vs good grades issue. In a perfect world they'd worry about the learning. But they aspire to go to law, medical or graduate school. Forget the learning. They need the grades. I try to set a tone in my classroom that students should worry about the learning and forget about the grade. I tell them that a less than optimal grade is simply a signal that they don’t completely grasp the concept - yet. It doesn’t mean they are stupid. It means they haven’t mastered the material and that they need to find a way to do that. We can do that together.
But for many, a B or less means failure. And in the real world, they are sometimes right. I’ve had students tell me that they understand the good learning vs good grades issue. In a perfect world they’d worry about the learning.
But they aspire to go to law, medical or graduate school. Forget the learning. They need the grades.

]]> By: Patrick Yen http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3156 Patrick Yen Sat, 01 Sep 2007 04:26:35 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3156 Perhaps you've already seen this: http://www.dumblittleman.com/2007/07/become-autodidact-10-ways-to-become.html In particular: "2. Online Courses. Today you can learn from the best colleges and universities, from the comfort of your own home. Just a few of the online offerings: Berkeley, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Notre Dame." Surely you've heard of MITs OpenCourseWare: http://ocw.mit.edu/ http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm I think J-schools need to completely restructure their programs as well as the way they teach journalism to maintain relevancy. Education is free online, what's not free is the diploma or the discussion and debate you can experience in classrooms. As expensive as college has become, it seems to become more and more of a scam in light of the same info being free online. I think J-schools need to adopt more of a [socratic] seminar process, with computer touch screens in front of everyone that are hooked up to the interweb. Circular classrooms.. Multimedia Multiversities, so to speak: http://www.lightstalkers.org/multimedia_multiversity Thant's my two cents. Perhaps you’ve already seen this:
http://www.dumblittleman.com/2007/07/become-autodidact-10-ways-to-become.html

In particular:
“2. Online Courses. Today you can learn from the best colleges and universities, from the comfort of your own home. Just a few of the online offerings: Berkeley, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Notre Dame.”

Surely you’ve heard of MITs OpenCourseWare:
http://ocw.mit.edu/
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm

I think J-schools need to completely restructure their programs as well as the way they teach journalism to maintain relevancy.

Education is free online, what’s not free is the diploma or the discussion and debate you can experience in classrooms. As expensive as college has become, it seems to become more and more of a scam in light of the same info being free online.

I think J-schools need to adopt more of a [socratic] seminar process, with computer touch screens in front of everyone that are hooked up to the interweb. Circular classrooms..

Multimedia Multiversities, so to speak:
http://www.lightstalkers.org/multimedia_multiversity

Thant’s my two cents.

]]> By: Mindy http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3152 Mindy Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:11:35 +0000 http://mindymcadams.com/tojou/2007/what-does-an-education-guarantee/#comment-3152 Stony Brook University has an ambitious plan to require a <a href="http://www.sunysb.edu/journalism/nyt.html" rel="nofollow">news literacy course</a> of every student in the entire school. I was skeptical of this at first, especially the <a href="http://www.knightfdn.org/default.asp?story=news_at_knight/releases/2006/2006_10_23_stonybrook.html" rel="nofollow">$1.7 million grant</a> they got to do it. But then I saw and heard the brains behind the initiative -- Howard Schneider, former editor and managing editor of Newsday -- speak about the course, and I was an instant fan. Do not scoff unless you have heard Schneider explain the course content -- it is awesome. Stony Brook University has an ambitious plan to require a news literacy course of every student in the entire school. I was skeptical of this at first, especially the $1.7 million grant they got to do it. But then I saw and heard the brains behind the initiative — Howard Schneider, former editor and managing editor of Newsday — speak about the course, and I was an instant fan. Do not scoff unless you have heard Schneider explain the course content — it is awesome.

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